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UT INCEPIT FIDELIS SIC
PERMANET
(Loyal she began and loyal she remains)
Motto of Ontario


Michael Bryant
View
Michael Bryant's
Citytv interview

Watch the
Raw Unedited Citytv
interview of Michael Bryant making a fool of himself on camera
View

Clayton Ruby's
Raw Unedited CHUM TV Press Conference
Read
Bill
132
If you are fighting
against the Pit bull Ban or Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) in your
province or state and would like to link up, please send me an email
Open letter to Michael
Bryant
click on GoodPooch
to view
Check out these
Excellent Web
Sites





I have taken PETA off all my
pages. Read further to find out why.

Copyrighted image used courtesy of WonderBull.com
PETA SUPPORTS THE BSL
WARNING!
PETA is NOT saving animals
as they lead you to believe, but rather distroying approximately 90% of
the animals put in their care.
They are using X- con's to
blow up and set fire to places that keep animals.
Save the animals...YES! But,
set fire to prove a point and kill the animals inside is not 'saving
animals'.
They splice video tapes to
prove their point of who they are after. If they can not find the
evidence, they produce evidence themselves from other film. Doctoring
video tapes are not showing you the truth.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT!
If you are a PETA supporter,
I would advise you to further investigate before donating any further
money to them.
UPDATE ON THE MINISTRY OF
ATTORNEY GENERAL
Information on The Dog Owners' Liability Act and Public
Safety Related to Dogs Statute Law Amendment Act, 2005 at the bottom of
page.
Ontario is NOT going down without a FIGHT!
Information on Ontario dog owners wpth the help of DLCC,
GoodPooch & various Associations taking the Province to court.
You will find the information at the bottom of page.
London, Ontario is making it hard for Pit bull owners
to keep their dogs dispite the new law.
Read the City Hall unfair proposed meeting report at the
bottom of page.
Don't worry! We are NOT going down without a FIGHT!
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Friday, March 23, 2007
CanWest
News Service
TORONTO — The Ontario Superior court has upheld Ontario’s
controversial pit bull ban legislation.
“We consider this to be a good day for public safety in Ontario,”
Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant told reporters Friday.
“This is the first legislation of its kind, I would anticipate that
it would now be copied in a number of jurisdictions across North
America.”
The Dog Owner’s Liability Act bans Ontarians from acquiring pitbulls
and says owners must neuter existing animals and ensure they’re leashed
and muzzled in public.
Violators face a maximum penalty of $10,000 and six months in jail.
Ontario’s Liberal government introduced the ban following a series of
horrific attacks that left people badly maimed.
The court did find fault with two provisions of the legislation.
In the first instance, it didn’t accept that pitbull terriers (as
opposed to purebred pitbulls) be subject to the ban.
In the second, it said it wasn’t acceptable for bylaw enforcement
officers going after violators to go to court armed only with a
veterinarian’s signed document stating the animal involved is a pit
bull. In the future, such expert testimony will have to be presented in
person.
Caroline Wawzonek, a lawyer representing Toronto pitbull owner
Catherine Cochrane, said the court decision will be appealed.
Cochrane’s constitutional challenge of the act was backed by the Dog
Legislation Council of Canada, which represents a number of dog breeding
and animal interest groups.
Prominent Toronto lawyer Clayton Ruby, who led Cochrane’s legal team,
argued in his presentation to the court last spring that the definition of
pitbull in the provincial law is too vague.
Cross-examinations over the next 2
weeks!
Wed Nov 15, 2006
As you all know, there was a delay in our case due to the Government
introducing new information.
Here is an update on the motion, etc....
Cross-examinations will start Thursday, November 16th and will wrap up
on Tuesday, November 28th.
The court hearing has been set for December 21, at 10:00 a.m. Courtroom
to be confirmed.
This is very good news – there was some concern that the hearing would
be put off until January.
IMPORTANT MESSAGE
FROM BANNED AID
Ontario.
Twice the size of Texas.
Three times the size of Germany.
Five times the size of the United Kingdom.
Home to a breed-specific legislative ban covering the largest
geo-political area in the world.
A ban that discriminates not by action or
deed, but by physical appearance.
A ban that targets not only "pitbulls",
American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers and
Staffordshire Bull Terriers", but haunts *ANY* pure-or-crossbred
canine bearing a substantial physical resemblance to one of the
aforementioned. The 2004 brainchild of the province's Attorney General,
Michael Bryant, the now-infamous Bill 132 was conceived as a vote-grabbing
safety measure; a poorly designed and ill-appointed law geared to target
the public's visceral fear of dog attacks. Implemented in August of 2005,
retribution against innocent canines and their owners was swift.
Walking your pet without a muzzle now means
risking seizure without warrant. Visitors and residents alike travelling
without certified documentation face the spectre of breed (mis)-identification
looming around every corner.
Pets showing natural protective tendencies
within the boundaries of their home turf may now be turned in on the
suspicion of being 'menacing'. This last is particularly frightening;
simple barking at passers-by can be interpreted as 'threatening behaviour'
by control officers with no training in either animal behaviour or breed
identification. Failure to pass muster on any of the above can and will
result in a one-way trip to the official's choice of humane society, pound
or research facility. There are few second chances.
This ban has raised both the conscience and
ire of dog lovers from British Columbia to Prince Edward Island . It's not
just a 'pit-bull' issue. It's a Rottweiler issue, a Doberman issue. It's
about Boxers and Bullmastiffs, Bull Terriers, Neapolitan Mastiffs and
Boston Terriers, Great Danes and Vizslas... are you surprised? These are
but a handful of breeds that have come under scrutiny and endured public
censure following the implementation and subsequent over-broad
interpretation of A.G. Bryant's Bill.
From the beginning, concerned groups and
individuals questioned the feasibility of a legal challenge - a challenge
directed at the violation of constitutional rights, yet still allowing for
the punishment of those who willfully put animals and people in harm's
way. Prominent trial and constitutional lawyer Clayton Ruby was
immediately retained.
With the help of the American Staffordshire
Terrier Club of Canada, the Golden Horseshoe American Pit Bull Terrier
Club, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club of Canada and Advocates for the
Underdog, a coalition was formed including the Dog Legislation Council of
Canada and aptly named "Banned-Aid". This group was to play a
prominent role in the ensuing months, bringing the plight of Ontario's
dogs to those who otherwise might never have considered the gravity of the
situation. Their determination paid off; the spring of 2006 saw a trial
date set, and on May 15th, 16th and 18th, Justice T. Herman heard final
arguments from both sides in Ontario's Superior Court.
The battle, however, is not quite over.
Government-initiated delays have resulted in the near-doubling of our
legal fees, which have long passed initial "guesstimates" and
are closing in on the 1/2 million mark. In this we are running out of
time. Generous time allowances by Clayton Ruby's offices have merely
slowed the inevitable, that being we *MUST* come up with $ 100,000 in two
weeks' time for this case to continue.
The importance of being present to rebut
this new motion cannot be overestimated. Lacking an opposing legal
presence gives government lawyers carte blanche while countering from our
side greatly increases the chances of any further introductions being
struck down as frivolous. Ruby strongly believes this attempt to be a
last-gasp 'smoke screen' effort by our opposition, carefully orchestrated
to bring us to our financial knees. We cannot let this happen. If we have
come this far, it is in large part due to the faith of our members,
friends and allies - individuals who possess the same gritty determination
hallmarking the breeds this Bill seeks to eliminate forever.
We are so very, very close. For the latest
updates and news briefs, we urge you to visit the Dog Legislation Council
of Canada website at:
http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/
If you believe - as we do - that victory is
a mere leash-length away, then please help by donating to the Ontario
Legal Challenge of Bill 132 through the following agents:
Banned-Aid Coalition - http://www.bannedaid.com/
Send a cheque or money order payable to
Banned Aid to:
Cathy Prothro
National Secretary/Treasurer - Banned Aid Coalition
351 Pleasant Street
Dartmouth NS B2Y 3S4
Mark a cheque "Banned Aid - In Trust' on the memo line; make payable
to "Ruby and Edwardh" and send to:
Ruby and Edwardh
11 Prince Arthur Avenue
Toronto, ON M5R 1B2
No donation is too small, no suggestion
unimportant. Each and every contribution is humbly appreciated - indeed,
more than can be possibly expressed. We know the dogs this saves would
thank you if they could.
Respectfully
Banned
Aid Coalition
351 Pleasant Street
Dartmouth NS B2S 3Y4
Canada
PayPal is available on the
DLCC page.
NOW IN EFFECT:
ONTARIO PIT BULL BAN IN
FULL FORCE STARTED
OCTOBER 29th, 2005
Any pit bull puppies born became
illegal at 17:41 on November 28, 2005, EST. and will be put down.

Put your money where your (dog's) mouth is!
The
Banned Aid Coalition has been fighting the Ontario government for
the past year and a half on behalf of ALL dog owners and they have been
successful.
Public awareness of the dangers of Bill 132 has increased dramatically,
media organizations are starting to understand the greater ramifications
of legislation that punishes law-abiding citizens, and the best lawyer
in the country has just finished arguing the legislation's
constitutionality in Ontario's Superior Court, a first for Canada!
What does this mean to the average dog owner?
If the legal challenge is successful, governments across Canada will be
discouraged from creating arbitrary, discriminatory, and unfair laws
against dog owners. Precedent will have been set, experts will have
testified, and arguments will have been made (and won) to help protect
all responsible dog owners in the country. All of this information and
testimony will be available to ensure that communities will consider dog
owners as a large block of voters with a unified voice who will NOT sit
back and watch their freedoms and their right to enjoy their pets be
stripped away.
Success means that you won't be the next person to be forced to muzzle
or sterilize your dog because of the way it looks.
Success means that the authorities won't be able to enter your home and
seize your dog simply because your neighbour doesn't like you.
Success means that you won't be forced to prove the breed of your dog in
order to keep it alive.
Success means that you will have the choice to buy, adopt, or rescue any
breed you wish, instead of having the government decide which breed is
right for you!
Most members of Banned Aid do NOT own breeds targeted and banned by the
Ontario government. They simply recognize the danger of allowing a
government to start on this path.
This legal challenge has cost, and is still costing, a lot of money. In
the case of an appeal, it will cost even more.
There are approximately six million dogs in this country, living in at
least a million or two households. A combined effort by dog owners to
support this legal challenge would require very little money from each
individual, in reality not even a dollar!
The Banned Aid Coalition is fighting for you and your dog(s). Please
reward these efforts by supporting them financially. All members are
volunteers. Most materials and supplies are donated by supportive
organizations or by the volunteers themselves. Every penny raised goes
to fund the legal challenge.
One dollar, ten dollars, or a hundred. It doesn't matter. What matters
is that every dog owner in this country needs to stand up and be
counted, BEFORE they come for YOUR dog!
Please make your cheque payable to Ruby and Edwardh and mail it to:
Ruby & Edwardh
11 Prince Arthur Ave.
Toronto, Ont.
M5R 1B2
IMPORTANT: Please indicate on the envelope and on the cheque memo line
that the money is for the BANNED AID LEGAL FUND.
If you would prefer to donate online using PayPal, simply go to the DLCC
Donation Page at http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/donate.html
For those of you who have already helped, the dogs of Ontario and the
rest of Canada thank you!
Neighbouring Countries
are asking to help in our plea for Legal funds!
This is so touching and I contacted DLCC to see if PayPal would accept other
currency. The response I'm happy to say is, Yes, paypal will accept many
denominations, and even convert them into Cdn dollars , foreigners are
welcome to join, as a matter of fact encouraged, they can join online and
pay via Paypal, they can also buy product online (from the Banned Aid
Coalition site, www.bannedaid.com) ,
we will ship all over! Thank you to ALL of you. Our fight is not only
Canada. BSL has no borders and we will be there for you too!!!
Court Challenge
Court Room Summaries by Steve Barker,
Ontario Director for the DLCC of The Ontario Pit bull Ban as it's happening May
15th. & 16th.
Court
Report of May 15th
Here is my summary of May
15.
The courtroom holds about 40 people.
Packed. Wish it was bigger.
Clayton Ruby is great. Much drier in this
environment than in front of the cameras. Much more of a quiet and
respectful environment. Still manages to get in a dig at the government
occasionally. Refers a lot to case law related to his three arguments. He
uses cases that have nothing to do with dogs to illustrate the concepts.
He started by reviewing the pit bull
definition, the restrictions and regulations, the penalties, and the Animals
for Research Act.
Three arguments:1. Overbreadth
The law is too overreaching in that it
captures many dogs not of the proscribed breeds and many dogs that are not
dangerous (the stated purpose of the law). He used this category to discuss
whether or not pit bulls are more dangerous than other breeds.
Note that the U.S. courts are not allowed
to use overbreadth to strike any law except if it violates freedom of
speech. Not the same here in Canada. We can use the overbreadth argument
much more liberally.
The main argument is that the
constitution is not there to BALANCE government interest (public safety)
against individuals' interests. The constitution is there to PROTECT the
individual IN SPITE OF a legitimate government interest.
Nice quote: "These dogs are better
than most, based on the evidence in Canada, which was not contested by the
government".
He also listed the other alternatives
that the government could have considered that were less restrictive on a
specific group.
2. Vagueness
The law does not provide the ability for
a person to know if they are obeying the law and it fails to protect
citizens against arbitrary application of the law. A vague law is a law that
fails to provide a boundary between permissible and impermissible
behaviour.Noted that the government selected a group of people (vets) to be
the legal identifier of pit bulls when that same group (the OVMA) has
testified that they can't do it.
Discussed the Sarnia case, where the
judge specifically said that the law is vague.
Excellent evidence read from Lee Steeve's
testimony that you cannot identify a breed by its appearance alone. Her
response to hard cross-examination was great, specifically about how, in
certain circumstances, poorly breed Labrador Retrievers could be
substantially similar to poorly bred American Staffordshire Terriers.
Quoted Tom Skeldon (Ohio dog warden) from
the Ohio case where he admits he can't identify a pit bull.
Discussed the significant differences
between U.S. law and ours. A constitutional challenge in the U.S. based on
overbreadth is basically not allowed and vagueness is very difficult. Ours
allows more leeway and puts more onus on the government to prove their case.
Quoted Ohio decision where the judges
were "troubled" by the lack of definition of the breed.
3. Trial FairnessListed his
cross-examinations of police officers and animal control officers, as well
as Darlene Wagner (postal worker, attack victim). Showed very well how
difficult it is to pick the pit bull. Some admitted that they can't ID at
all. Others picked some breeds correctly, but signficant numbers were wrong.
Broke for lunch and will return at
2:15pm.
Trial Fairness
Clayton Ruby continued his arguments, focusing a lot on his third argument -
trial fairness.
He first focused on Section 19 of the DOLA, related to accepting into
evidence a document purported to be from a veterinarian, stating that a dog
is a "pit bull".
This is a case of the legislation forcing a judge to admit into evidence
what would normally NOT be admissible - a document of opinion without a
witness testifying. The crown can choose not to use such a document, but if
they do, the legislation does not give the judge the choice to rule on the
admissibility of the evidence. It must be accepted. This is not normal or
acceptable.
In addition, defence cannot cross-examine the veterinarian because he does
not need to testify. They can subpoenae him as their own witness, but at
their own cost. Even then, they cannot cross-examine him, only examine him
"in chief". Basically, it's more difficult to "go hard"
at him.
The credibility of the veterinarian is crucial, considering that the
identification of breed is the crux of the legislation. This document does
not even have to be sworn in front of a JP. There are no safeguards in this
substitution to ensure that the statement is likely true.
There is also a mandatory presumption of fact. It substitutes non-evidence
(document) for evidence (witness testimony) without an overriding reason why
the original witness should not be examined. There are valid reasons for not
having a witness testify (protection, national interest, etc), but
protecting a vet from cross-examination is not one of them.
Clayton Ruby also asked that the judge deem inadmissible some government
evidence based on legislative and committee Hansards (transcripts of
legislature and committee sessions). The legislative Hansard contained some
of Michael Bryant's comments and the committee Hansard contained statements
made by members of the public. Case precedent shows a reluctance by courts
to accept politicians' legislative comments as evidence and case precedent
always refuses to accept statements by members of the public in committee
Hansards. This is because neither of these are sworn statements and neither
have the option of cross-examination.
The government also has a responsibility to show that there were reasonable
alternatives, if they were proposed. Their Hansard choices were biased in
their favour, while they ignored the 80% of the committee presentations
against the ban, many of which presented reasonable and less restrictive
alternatives.
Reasonableness Test
A law that imprisons citizens can fail the vagueness and overbroad tests
(section 7 of the charter) can still be saved by section 1 if the government
can prove that the legislation, even though overbroad or vague, has a
rational connection to its purpose. The purpose of this legislation is to
reduce dog bites. Is the legislation reasonable enough to be saved by
section 1 in order to accomplish this purpose?
Ruby
then listed all the reasons why banning pit bulls will not solve the problem
of dog bites, including quoting studies and witness testimony.
This legislation, as a result of the reasons listed earlier, fails the
rational connection test. This is actually quite rare in section 1
challenges. Most section 1 challenges focus on legislation not being the
least restrictive option. This legislation also fails that test, since the
government was provided with ample testimony offering proven alternatives.
Using the recent Supreme Court ruling on the Sikh student who wanted to take
a kirpan (traditional religious dagger) to school. In finding in favour of
the student, the Supreme Court said that the risk to community safety must
be unequivocably proven in order to not violate the charter. Since even the
government's own witnesses agreed that most dogs targeted in this
legislation are happy, friendly pets that will never bite anyone, the risk
to community safety is not great enough to justify vague or overbroad
legislation.
The Supreme Court did rule that a breathalyser test law could be saved by
section 1 because the "extreme" measures were rationally connected
to the purpose of the legislation. This was proven using scientific research
and statistics. Our legislation has not been proven this way. In addition,
in order not to be unreasonably restrictive on citizens, the test must be
performed twice with at least fifteen minutes in between tests, and must be
completed within two hours. This shows that the lawmakers made every attempt
to keep the infringement reasonable.
Federal Animal Pedigree Act
Breese Davies, Ruby's associate who has done a lot of work on this case,
presented an argument that the provincial law conflicts with the federal
Animal Pedigree Act. The federal APA stipulates that the only people allowed
to identify breeds are pedigree registries, in this case the Canadian Kennel
Club. Nobody else in this country is allowed to identify a breed and the
only reason that the pedigree registry is allowed to identify the breed is
if they have the pedigree of the dog. In conflict with this federal law, the
provincial legislation, without any consideration that there is a federal
law prohibiting it, gives the province the power to identify breeds and then
hands that power even further to veterinarians, whose regulating body (the
OVMA) has testified that it is impossible for them to perform this function.
Morning Court Report for May 16th.
Here
is my summary of the morning of May 16.
It was the government's turn to make their
case.
Sonny Allison, a director in the CKC,
described the entire morning as "a semantic dance around the elusive
definition of a mixed breed of dog whose breed cannot be scientifically
proved". I would agree.The focus is on two things:
1. Can you identify a pit bull? This applies
to both the vagueness and overbreadth arguments.
2. Do pit bulls need to be treated specially?
This applies to both the overbreadth and the reasonableness arguments.The
entire morning was spent on the vagueness argument.
He went through a number of case precedents
where upper courts have allowed vague laws. His basic argument is that
most laws are general in nature, with the judges dealing with specifics in
court cases and that this is no different.There are four points to be made
re vagueness:
1. The law must be intelligible. However,
according to the case law that he quoted, it does not have to be
intelligible (i.e., interpretable) by the average member of the public so
much as it has to be interpretable by a judge. He made arguments that it
is intelligible, based on the statement that the word "pit bull"
is so commonly used that everyone knows what it means. He also argued that
it is possible to identify the predominant physical characteristics of a
particular breed and whether an individual dog has some or all of those
characteristics.
2. There must be an area of risk defined.
What risk is the law trying to prevent? This will also be brought up this
afternoon when they try to prove that pit bulls are dangerous enough to be
specially regulated.
3. The law is entitled to speak generally and
allow the judges to balance specific arguments pro/con during a court
case.
4. The threshold for vagueness is very high.
Courts are reluctant to find laws unconstitutional due to vagueness
without first trying to interpret the law exhaustively in other ways.
The next part was just the word "pit
bull". He brought up numerous court cases where the word was used and
accepted, as well as testimony from both sides that used the word. He
argued that it is an identifiable dog, that "pit bull" refers to
APBT's, AST's, and SBT's and dogs that are substantially similar. He spent
a lot of time on this.
He then discussed the breed standards for the
three purebred breeds, basically to prove that it is possible to identify
the unique characteristics of a breed by sight alone.
He also requested that the "pick the pit
bull" pictures NOT be allowed into evidence. Ruby had used these
pictures to show that police officers were not able to accurately identify
pit bulls. His argument is that we were unable to prove, through
registration papers and/or other methods, that the 25 dogs shown were
actually the breeds listed. In theory, because we didn't prove that (in
his view), they could all be pit bulls or they could all be Jack Russell
Terriers. There is no proof that the dog in the picture is the breed we
say it is.
Accordingly, if the pictures are accepted
based on Zaharchuk's evidence that they each accurately represent their
breed, then it is possible to identify dog breeds by sight.This afternoon
will be more focused on the unique danger to society that pit bulls
represent. It will be more difficult to keep our mouths shut during this,
but Breese has told us to not even roll our eyes or we might get kicked
out.
Clarification re 1:30 court report
Just to clarify something that was asked
of me re the 1:30 court report.
Sonny Allison of the CKC
(Canadian Kennel Club) is against BSL. There was some
confusion in my post as to whether he was the crown's attorney. The
"he" later in my summary refers to the crown's attorney, not
Sonny.
Here is my summary of the afternoon of May
16.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Because the government
overran their time, the case will continue on THURSDAY morning at 9:30
(not Wednesday). Note the time change (not 10:00). Not sure of the room
number. Will post it later.
Legalities require me to tell you that I'm
not a lawyer and this document contains only my interpretations of what
was said in court and my opinions. Nothing in this document should ever
be construed as advice. This applies to my previous posts as well and
they will be modified to note this.
Well, we knew this would be a more
difficult day, since the government would be doing all the talking. As
mentioned in my previous post, the morning was simply a semantic dance
around breed definitions. The afternoon was much different.
The purpose the afternoon presentation was
to attempt to persuade the judge that pit bulls need to be treated
differently from other dogs. As such, pit bulls must be shown to be more
dangerous, so much effort was put into this. If they are successful in
this attempt, than that would go towards proving the risk to public
safety that is required for legislation to be considered reasonable.
The crown discussed their evidence,
originally received back in February and March, related to six separate
attacks by dogs that were identified as pit bulls. They discussed the
details of each attack, including graphic descriptions of the attacks
themselves, of the injuries they caused, of the repair and recuperation
required, and of the long-term effects of these attacks. Five out of the
six attacks were horrific in nature. The other, although injurious to
humans, particularly children, did not result in quite the level of
injury, but was used in part to try to show the tenacity of the
attacking dogs.
The six incidents were:
Carrie Hewitson (young adult, Brantford, 3
dogs, 2003)
Darlene
Wagner (postal worker, Chatham, 2 dogs, 2004)
Robert
Adams and brother (12 and 4 year old boys, Ottawa, 2 dogs, 2005)
Jadon
Laroux (sp?) (2 year old boy, Ottawa, 3 dogs, 2005) and father and
neighbour
Lauren Harper (5 year old daughter of
Louise Ellis, Toronto, 1 dog, 1994)
Tom
Skeldon testimony (young boy, Ohio, unknown number of dogs)
I understand that no part of the witnesses'
testimonies related to these attacks was challenged by Mr. Ruby.Crown
also presented the testimonies of various police officers related to
shooting attacking pit bulls. Judge asked if other non pit bull breeds
had ever had to be shot by police officers. Crown was unable to answer
this because no evidence had been introduced regarding this. The lawyers
and the judge can only deal with evidence that had already been
introduced back in February and March.
Crown made two points regarding targeting
pit bulls:
1. The legislature has perceived pit bulls
as a problem and has the right to address it.
2. It is not the role of this court to
determine the wisdom of the legislation, just its constitutionality.
Later, the judge made a comment that a
number of the attacks listed seem to clearly indicate a problem with the
owners rather than with a particular type of dog. She also made the
argument that we know well, that problem owners will simply move to a
different breed.
Crown's answer, after what I assume was a
discussion amongst their lawyers during the break, came back and
discussed how assault weapons are not allowed in this country, no matter
how good an owner you may be. He describe pit bulls as the "assault
weapons of the canine world".
The test for overbreadth is gross
disproportionality, the proof of which rests with the applicant (us). It
is a valid state interest to protect the public from harm.
How much harm do you need to justify the
state interest? One judicial decision stated that, once it has been
demonstrated that the harm is not trivial or insignificant, then it is
Parliament's job to determine how much to legislate.
A reasoned apprehension of harm is all that
is required. Government does not have to scientifically or statistically
prove the harm exists before legislating preventive measures.
In one case discussed earlier, obedience
training was a suggested alternative for management of a pit bull. Crown
argues that muzzling and leashing are also valid and reasonable
management tools and that sterilization is the ultimate management tool
that eventually eliminates the risk of harm entirely.
Court Report May 18 3:30pm
Here is my summary of the morning of May 18.
Legalities require me to tell you that I'm not a lawyer and this
document contains only my interpretations of what was said in court and
my opinions. Nothing in this document should ever be construed as
advice. This applies to my previous posts as well and they will be
modified to note this.
Well, they sure managed to fit a lot into two and half hours this
morning.
CROWN
ATTORNEYS
The crown started with the arguments about "trial fairness",
which was Clayton Ruby's third reason for unconstitutionality.
The crown argued first about Section 19 of the DOLA, where a document
from a vet can be entered into evidence as "proof" that the
dog is a pit bull. Ruby's argument was that cross-examination of a
document was not possible and that, even if the vet is called as a
witness, because the defendant would have to call the witness, the
defence can only examine the witness "in chief", not
cross-examine him. This means that it is dependent on the judge as to
how "rough" the defence can get with the vet.
Crown pointed to the section Provincial Offences Act (POA) that applies
to proceedings under DOLA. Part IV, Section 46, subsection 2 says that
the defendant is entitled to make full answer and defence. Subsection 3
says that the defence may examine and cross-examine witnesses. Ruby
responds to this later on.
Then the question was "how do we get a vet into court?" The
answer is that the defence may issue a summons. What does it cost to get
a vet? The court costs are $5.00 (i.e., not prohibitive) and are only
applied upon conviction.
Also, the defendant could easily bring a motion before the judge to
allow cross-examination (i.e., treat the witness as hostile).
Even without cross-examination, the defence could still put
contradictory evidence to the witness and, if the witness is hostile,
request permission to cross-examine.
The crown's basic argument is that, in order for cross-examination to
NOT be possible, the legislation would have to EXPRESSLY prohibit it,
which the DOLA does not.
Now to Section 1 of the charter (reasonableness):
According to the crown (which Ruby later challenges), the onus is on the
applicant (us) to establish that there has been a violation of the
charter. In this case, what the crown is saying is that it's not the
crown's responsibility to prove that the legislation is reasonable. It's
the applicant's responsibility to prove it isn't. Ruby disagreed with
this (later) and provided arguments to the contrary.
The key to reasonableness is "harm to society". The government
has to prove a reasonable apprehension of harm.
Then he went off on a tangent for a second to talk about whether the
judge should allow him to bring into evidence the legislative committee
transcripts. He provided 3 case histories that allowed legislative
committee transcripts into evidence. Ruby later attacked all 3 cases as
irrelevant to this case.
The judge noted that the only time legislative committee transcripts are
allowed to be used as evidence is to help with determining the INTENT of
the legislation. She noted that there is no dispute among anybody about
the INTENT of this legislation (i.e., reduction of harm to society), so
why do we need the transcripts? No real answer from the crown on this.
Back to Section 1 of the charter.
Section 1 requires a "proportionality analysis" to determine
if the legislation is reasonable in its attempts to achieve its
objective.
The proportionality analysis consists of three parts:
1. There must be a rational connection of the challenged portion to the
purpose of the legislation. In this case, the challenged portion is the
banning and restrictions of pit bulls. The purpose of the legislation is
dog bite reduction and public safety. Is there a rational connection
between banning pit bulls and increasing public safety?
2. The legislation must minimally impair the lives of those it affects.
This brings in the discussion of alternative measures that the
government did or did not consider. Does banning pit bulls minimally
impair those it affects compared to other, more generic, legislation?
3. The legislation must be proportional to the risk of harm. Is banning
pit bulls an overly extreme measure considering the risk of harm from
the dogs?
Rational Connection
Using a case related to obscenity charges for pornography (which was
used throughout this case), the court in that case noted that, while
there is NOT direct link between obscenity and harm to society, it is
reasonable to assume that exposure to certain images could change a
person's attitude towards the group depicted in those images
(specifically women and children).
In the face of insufficient social or scientific evidence, it is
sufficient that Parliament had a reasonable basis for assuming harm.
Parliament does not need proof in order to reasonably predict harm. The
government is afforded a margin of appreciation to achieve their
objective of public safety. Although there was no conclusive proof of
harm, the legislation could reasonably conclude that there was harm. In
our case, the crown contends that their proof is actually better than
the proof that was in the obscenity case and that legislation was
upheld.
The judge responded by stating that the issue is not whether pit bulls
cause harm, but whether it is JUST pit bulls causing harm or whether
other dogs could cause or have caused similar harm. She asked the
question "is that harm caused because the dogs are pit bulls"?
Minimum Impairment
There is no constitutional right to own a pit bull. This was reiterated
throughout the case by the crown. I find it interesting that Ruby has
never stated that we have a constitutional right to own a dog. He is
saying that we have a constitutional right to NOT be imprisoned for
owning a certain type of dog.
Leashing, muzzling, sterilizing constitute reasonable impairment.
Courts have held that Parliament must be given some leeway in
restricting the public in order to prevent harm to the public.
Back to the obscenity law, many of the alternatives are RESPONSES after
the harm has occurred. The judge responded "if one could determine
ahead of time, through a temperament test, prior to an attack, if a dog
was dangerous or likely to attack, would that not be a reasonable
alternative and impair less? Also, would obedience school prevent
attacks?"
The crown replied that there is no evidence presented to this particular
court that obedience training prevents attacks.
Crown: Pit bulls are unpredictable. There is no warning of attack.
Judge: Saying that there is no warning of attack at the time of the
attack is not the same thing as saying that dog cannot be assessed for
dangerousness [using a temperament test].
Crown agreed.
Crown quoted AVMA report (Dr. Clifford) stating that pit bulls attack
without giving warning signals. He quoted another AVMA report (Carl
Seminac sp?) and Richard Stratton's book stating that both purebreds and
crossbreeds are unpredictable. The Clifford report also discussed the
wisdom and policy of allowing inexperienced vets to handle pit bulls,
given that they are unpredictable and attack without warning. The
Clifford report also stated that pit bull bites are more serious that
other bites, directly contradicting Dr. Brisbin's that the "bite
and hold" tendency of pit bulls actually causes less damage than
the "slash and tear" of other breeds.
Proportionality (Balancing)
The effects of the law so severely infringe on the right of the
individual that it is grossly disproportionate to the positive effects
of the law. Crown's argument is that the harm is severe enough and the
restrictions reasonable enough that this legislation is proportional.
Federalism (Animal Pedigree Act)
In order to discuss a conflict between provincial and federal
legislation, there must first be an assumption that both pieces of
legislation are constitutionally valid. In this case, the
constitutionality of the provincial legislation is in question, so this
argument regarding federal paramountcy may be moot.
Also noted that Attorney General of Canada has not requested to
intervene in this case, which he might have done if he felt that the two
pieces of legislation conflicted.
Quote from a Supreme Court decision: "Courts should be particularly
cautious about invalidating provincial legislation due to paramountcy if
the federal government has not intervened".
Section 95 of the Constitutional Act of 1867: Each province may make
laws in relation to agriculture. Any laws of the province are valid in
as far as it is not repugnant to a federal Act of Parliament. Where
there is inconsistency, the provincial legislation is inoperative to the
extent of the inconsistency. It is only inconsistent when it is
impossible to obey both laws.
A federal law regulating a field does not necessarily "occupy the
field" (i.e., prevent provincial legislation from addressing the
same field). The purpose of the APA is to promote the purity of a breed
and only this purpose should be considered when determining paramountcy.
The purpose of the DOLA is public safety whereas the APA's is commerce
and agriculture. Because of these two entirely different purposes, they
can co-exist and be obeyed simultaneously.
In the Rothman's case (Saskatchewan Tobacco Control Act) where
provincial legislation prohibited retail tobacco displays while the
federal legislation did not, the provincial legislation simply
prohibited something that the federal legislation did not. Both could be
obeyed because they did not expressly conflict.
Final Comments
Judge: "Are there any sections that, if found unconstitutional, the
crown would be willing to sever?"
Crown focused particularly on jail time and on the vet's certificate
(i.e., bring a vet into court to testify instead of just a document).
Basically, he left it up to the judge.
CLAYTON RUBY
Severability
The judge has no option to sever parts of the legislation. It was not
requested by the applicant. The only option to the judge is to make a
decision if the entire legislation is constitutional or not. If
severability becomes an issue, then this must be approached carefully
because of the complexity and arguments will have to be made from both
sides on that issue.
Legislative Committee Transcripts
In the cases listed by the government, the legislative committee
transcripts were only used to determine the scope of the legislation,
not the wisdom or the facts. In our case, nobody is question the purpose
of the legislation.
Quote from Ruby
The government is asking the judge not to make any findings of fact. In
fact, they're saying "For God's sake, don't make any findings of
fact!" This is because the facts are not on their side. The whole
point of their argument is "We're the government. Trust us!"
Reasonable Apprehension of Harm
Regarding the legislature having a "reasoned apprehension of
harm", it appears that the cases to which this has applied in the
past have all talked about trying to estimate what harm might occur
based on certain actions or legislation. These cases did not have
existing evidence of harm. They had to guess what the future harm might
be. In our case, we have evidence of harm from all breeds, including the
pit bull attacks listed by the crown. So there is no need for a reasoned
apprehension of harm. The legislature should have given more attention
to the existing evidence instead of just guessing at the possibility of
future harm.
Core vs. Periphery
There had been quite a bit of discussion about this earlier, which I
hadn't really covered. Ruby's point had been that there are a lot of
dogs that "sit on the edge" of the definition of pit bull (the
periphery). The core are the dogs that are one of the three listed
breeds. Much of the reason for the arguments from the crown about trying
to prove that "pit bull" is a commonly used word that everyone
understands is so that a lot more dogs could get thrown into that
definition, thus making the "core" bigger. One of the tests of
reasonableness or proportionality is how big the core is compared to the
periphery. How many dogs are guaranteed to fit the definition and how
many dogs MIGHT fit the definition?
To show that the core in this case is insignificant, Ruby listed the
registrations last year for Amstaffs and Staffy Bulls in Ontario (2 and
114 respectively). These dogs are insignificant in the population as a
whole and are also not the problem, being purebreds that are unlikely,
based on existing statistics, to ever be involved in a bite incident.
"Pit bull terrier" and "substantially similar", on
the other hand, are clearly definitions designed to catch as much of the
periphery as possible.
The DOLA does not require the judge to consider the breed standards,
unlike the Winnipeg bylaw which does.
In the cases of the challenges to the Winnipeg bylaw and to a Quebec
municipal bylaw, the courts must start by assuming that the bylaws are
valid and are the will of the people. Then they must be proved to not
be. This is the exact opposite of what's required here. The government
must prove that their law is constitutional when it comes to Section 1
of the charter.
In the cases where "substantially similar" or like phrases
have been challenged and rejected, the purpose of the legislation must
help interpret that phrase. In this case, the purpose of the legislation
(danger) cannot help with the interpretation of "substantially
similar physical characteristics" because all the evidence shows
that you cannot determine the dangerousness of a dog by its physicality.
Canadian evidence (Zaharchuk) takes priority over U.S. evidence (Beck
and Skeldon).
Bite Victims
The bite evidence of the victims cannot assist the court in the two
questions:
1. Is the ban necessary?
2. Is it reasonable? (I think that's what Ruby said)
Section 1 Onus
Also, the onus is on the crown to prove that the legislation is
reasonable under Section 1 of the charter.
Provincial Offences Act (Trial Fairness)
There is no right under this legislation to cross-examine the
veterinarian who provided the document. It is only a privilege. Thus, it
violates a defendant's right to make full answer and defence.
Rational Connection
If significant harm can and has been caused by all breeds of dog, then
rational connection is lost between the harm to society and the ban on
pit bulls.
Regarding pit bulls attacking without warning, specifically regarding
temperament testing, Ruby discussed the American Temperament Testing
Society results. He also quoted the Ohio case, where all experts except
one agreed that all dogs give warning signs before biting.
In response to the crown's suggestion that alternatives other than
banning pit bulls were in RESPONSE after attacks have already occcurred,
Ruby notes that other portions of the DOLA allow for proceedings against
an owner before an attack ever occurred (menace to public safety,
failure to prevent a dog from being a menace to public safety).
Federal Paramountcy
The federal government has not intervened in this case for EITHER side.
It is not here supporting the provincial government either. No
conclusion can be drawn in favour of the crown just because the federal
government has not intervened. Its own legislation is not at risk, so it
doesn't need to intervene.
COURT IS FINISHED
Judge reserved her decision. We have no idea on timeframe for a
decision. We should expect at least two or three months, maybe longer.
I am going to try to get the names of the judge and the crown attorneys
for historical purposes.
Over and out. I'm going to bed.
Steve
Pitbulljungle
has made and dedicated a video in memory of all the Pit bulls murdered since
the Ontario's Pit bull Ban. Please view
For
The Love Of A Pit
Read the Story of Neville. An
incrediable story of how from a banned Ontario dog close to death row
journeyed with the help of determined organizations and people to find his
way to the States and becoming a well loved and famous 'working dog'. Read
the complete story.

This is my Shasta and because I'm not
allowed a fence around my area, this is how she and many other bullies must
live in Ontario.
I call it 'Robbed of Simple Pleasures.'
It's
been a cold harsh winter and my body has taken every force of it mentally
and physically and I've waited what seems forever, for the nice weather to
finally come and stay, at least for awhile.
It's spring and I
look forward to taking Shasta out so we can once again enjoy ourselves
outside. Reality hits me once outside for several minutes. This spring is
like no other that we have ever been through before.

This spring, there will be
no more simple pleasures for us to enjoy outside. I can't toss a ball for
her to catch, nor a frizbee. Her muzzle doesn't allow her the simple
playful times we have had together of playing tug or war with a huge
stick.

Her playing with a large
stone, flipping it into the air and pouncing on it or scraping it with her
paws and her mouth.
Sticks that she liked to chew on and make
them into a multiude of slivered toothpicks or insects she would attempt
to grab with her mouth.

I used to watch her as she
did her ritual prance of sniffing the ground with her nose searching for
the procise location of the warm spot in the ground to eliminate herself
of stool. Wearing the muzzle doesn't give her that same exhuberance, as
perhaps her nose isn't close enough to the ground to find that perfect
spot.

Simple pleasures that she
so enjoyed have all been robbed from her, as if restriction from
socialization isn't enough. I see her looking around and know she is
hoping a dog with owner will walk by and perhaps stop to talk while she
enjoys the company of the other dog. Nobody comes.

As
luck would have it, A neighbours dog, Jack escapes from his home and comes
running to visit her. I see the happiness inside her as she greets him and
her tail wags a mile a minute, but it is short lived as no more than 30
seconds later a bellow calls out to Jack to get home.
She watches in his
direction hoping he may return soon, but he doesn't come and I can see the
disappointment in her eyes resigned that it's better in the house where at
least she has the cats and that awful muzzle can come off.
Not only has the
Government restricted her, but now we can see she is also robbed of her
simple pleasures.
How it all started for the Bullie
Breeds in Ontario
There seemed to be an incredible amount of
vicious attacks to people during the summer of 2004. People were being
severely maimed and whenever you turned on the news, it seemed as if pit
bulls had suddenly gone completely mad and going after innocent victims.
The television and newspapers showed people
with their ears half chewed off, arms and faces stitched back together. A
sudden flood of pit bulls at large, preying on people. It was a horrid
sight, adults and children alike. Something just wasn't adding up. Why
suddenly were they attacking people, when prior to that we hadn't heard
anything? I myself wondered the same as Shasta is an American Staffordshire
and she has such a lovable persona. I also know other owners of various
breeds, that they are often misnamed pit bulls, and all equally a friendly
breed that strives on pleasing their owners.
We soon found answers to our puzzlement and
the pieces started to fall into place. With all of these attacks, the dogs
were running loose, or a friend of a friend was walking a couple of dogs
together. There were 'no owners' around, which showed a lack of
responsibility on their parts.
Another part of this puzzle is that the media
jumped on the hype bandwagon and would announce another pit bull attack,
when in fact; at times the dog was not even a pit bull type.
First of all, to set the record straight,
there is no breed as pit bull. Pit bull is a slang term that people use in
describing various other breeds, but that gets confusing to the public
because of the cross mixes. The general public that aren't breed familiar
get Boxers, Dogue De Bordeau, Dogo Argebtino, Bull Mastiff, American Bulldog
, and other breeds mixed up and call them pit bulls. The media is the worst
culprit of this and thus the scare saga regarding pit bulls begins and
heightens.
To see the pictures of the badly scarred
victims with the label of 'Pit bull Attack' is enough to get the public
frightened for their lives from what they have seen in the media. Our
Honourable MPP, Michael Bryant was another person that got it in his mind
that all pit bulls were like loaded weapons ready to go off at any given
moment. He decided to that for the safety of all Ontarians, he would try to
pass Bill 132, which would ban all pit bulls in Ontario.
When constructing Bill 132, he talked with
dog attack victims, but refused to hear from animal associations, breeders,
vetanarians and other associations that asked to be heard. He flatly
refused. When demonstrators showed him pictures of dogs and asked him to
pick out the pit bull, he pointed to a different breed and when pointed out
that he was wrong, dismissed the person saying he wasn't there to play
games.
During an interview with Citytv, he again
tried to pick out the Pit bull, only this time he thought he knew it by the
picture number. What he didn't know was that the graphics department
switched the pictures. That was twice he came out with egg on his face and
this time called it "a neat trick." It was obvious that Michael
Bryant was a closed minded, fear mongering leader that was going out after
something without getting all the facts.
This called upon action from the pet owners,
breeders, pet and animal associations and general pet lover to start voicing
their protests against Bill 132. We didn't think it fair to ban a specific
breed, especially when in fact, the breeds Michael Bryant was referring to,
such as the Pit Bull Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the American
Staffordshire Terrier, and the American Pit Bull Terrier, along with any dog
that has the appearance and physical characteristics to these dogs. These
meaning any look alike dog. Such
demise for a loving breed that has been badly misunderstood, because of an
ancient sport created by man.
We agreed with Michael Bryant that there was
a problem, but banning a specific breed would not solve that problem. We
needed to take action for responsible ownership of any breed. The
irresponsible owners were the people that were jeopardizing the lives of all
breeds that came under the classification, pit bull.
As with any dog, it can be 'taught' to be
mean and aggressive by abuse. Unfortunately, who most would have
something to gain or protect that would have to brutally use a dog to help
achieve that gain? It would most likely be the people that the police are
trying to save society from. They are the irresponsible owners, because the
only set of rules they go by are their own. They break laws, they steal and
abuse dogs...and because of them, Michael Bryant is making us all pay and
having undeserving dogs that have done no harm to anyone destroyed or sent
to labs for experiments. What is their crime? No wrong committed, but it?s
all because of their breed.
Animal lovers and breeders don't 'want' a
mean and vicious dog. We want loving and loyal pets. Pets, that are part of
the family that we can trust with our children and grandchildren. Pets, that
we can take out and socialise with. We aren't looking for protection, but
for a loving addition to our family. We raise our dogs with love and respect
and in return we receive unconditional love from them that most humans can't
return.
Michael Bryant has made some amendments to
Bill 132. One being a 'grandfather clause', meaning that anyone that already
owns a 'pit bull' are allowed to keep their dogs, but they will have to be
spayed or neutered, licensed and leashed and muzzled in public as of August
26th, 2005. Heavy fines will be issued, not more than $10,000 or an imprison
term of not longer of 6 months, or both. A corporation can be fines no more
than $60,000. While this may seem just rather than having your pet
destroyed, but you have spent so much time with socializing your pet and it
looking forward to the attention it gets when going on an outing, that now
people walk across the street rather than come in contact with a vicious
looking dog with a muzzle on.
The real dilemma is the breeders and show
dogs. They pride themselves for raising a champion with good stock. No
backyard breeders or inner breeding going on with them, as you would have
with the people looking for fast gains. They have a love for the breed and
take pride with the pups they raise and have a reputation to uphold. Under
Bill 132, how is that possible unless they move out of the Province? Is this
justice?
Some of the misinformed dog owners have
already surrendered their dogs to be put down. The shelters and rescue
groups are filled to the brim.
How Bill 132 passed is beyond me. They say it
was 90% for the bill. Statistics show otherwise. I personally went to a city
hall open meeting and out of a full house and not enough room to let all in;
only 3 people there were for the ban. Michael Bryant asked us to send emails
addressed to him regarding the ban. I believe the ones against the ban were
probably filed under 'trash'. There were petitions generated both online and
in public. I sent in so many names against the ban, even people that weren't
particularly fond of pit bulls, but still didn't think the ban was
appropriate neither. I would say that with the people I spoke to, over 99%
were against the ban.
Now, other Provinces and some States in the
US are looking to follow Michael Bryant?s bill. Millions of dogs will be put
down or used for experiments. A misunderstood, lovable breed, eventually
coming to slow distinction is a heinous crime. We were chosen as a God
giving 'honour' of being the caregivers over the animals. This is inhumane
MURDER!
On a very personal note, I'd like you to know
that prior to Shasta, I was severely housebound due to health conditions and
phobia's. Shasta changed all that in me, that now we go everywhere together.
I even ride a bike now with her running a long side of me. I owe her so
much!
In return, I wanted others to benefit from
her, the way I did. I was getting her ready to be trained as a Therapy Dog
to visit with the elderly and the sick kids. She's a natural in the
personality department. Due to Bill 132, it not only dismissed Shasta and
her kind from helping others...but it broke a geniune dream that we were
getting ready for.
Michael Bryant's Bill 132 is in itself Animal
Abuse!
PUBLIC
SAFETY RELATED TO DOGS
STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 /
LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT DES LOIS
EN CE QUI CONCERNE LA URIT PUBLIQUE RELATIVE AUX CHIENS
Mr Bryant moved
second reading of the following bill:
Bill 132, An Act
to amend the Dog Owners' Liability Act to increase public safety in relation
to dogs, including pit bulls, and to make related amendments to the Animals
for Research Act / Projet de loi 132, Loi modifiant la Loi sur la
responsabilit?es propri?aires de chiens pour accro?re la s?urit?ublique
relativement aux chiens, y compris les pit-bulls, et apportant des
modifications connexes ?a Loi sur les animaux destin' 'a recherche.
Hon
Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs,
minister responsible for democratic renewal): I'm pleased to rise
today to lead off this debate in this Legislature. It is the first
Legislature in Canada to consider a province-wide debate. No state has yet
done that.
Interjection.
Hon Mr
Bryant: Mr Klees, on the other side, can't figure out why we're
doing it, and I'm here to make the case for it. I guess the short answer is
that these are dangerous dogs. They hurt people. They hurt kids. They hurt
families. They hurt other pets. They're dangerous. They cause damage.
Let's start
locally. Let me take you through just the last couple of months in Ontario.
This is a sampling of just media reports of pit bull attacks, so these
aren't the many unreported pit bull attacks that have taken place. These are
the pit bull attacks that have shown up in the media.
August 15: a man
attacked by a pit bull in Thorold, Ontario. August 21: a woman's dog
attacked in Toronto. This lady's dog was attacked and killed on that date.
She came to a round table I held in the Legislature on this. August 28: a
Toronto man attacked by two pit bulls. The police had to use over a dozen
bullets to put the pit bulls down.
August 30: I
asked the people of Ontario what they thought about a pit bull ban. Over
5,000 e-mails later the answer was pretty clear. There clearly are many,
many unreported pit bull attacks that have not ended up in the media or
before a humane society or otherwise. There are people who don't go to
certain parks, don't go down different streets, don't go into certain
neighbourhoods because there's a pit bull in the area. There are people who
have been victims of pit bull attacks. Either they, their dog or someone in
their family have been victims. There was a clear answer from those
thousands of people, and it's a little remarkable and, I think, very
positive that so many Ontarians engaged in the debate. There was no
unanimity, but the vast majority of people who e-mailed me, in any event,
certainly supported the ban.
September 10, a
girl was mauled by a pit bull in Chatham. September 13, a man was attacked
in Chatham by a pit bull. September 16, the Toronto Sun commissioned a
survey finding that six out of 10 Ontarians wanted a pit bull ban. September
18, a 10-year-old boy was chased from his own backyard by a pit bull in
Atikokan. Three days later, September 21, two pit bulls killed a Jack
Russell terrier in Toronto. Two days later in Mississauga, a woman was
attacked by a pit bull. One day later, a dog was killed by a pit bull near
Windsor in Tecumseh. September 24, the same day, two children were attacked
by a pit bull in St Catharines. Three days later, September 27, the city of
Windsor bans pit bulls. September 28, a Toronto man is attacked by two pit
bulls.
October 3, a
woman is attacked by a pit bull in London. October 13, a man is attacked by
a pit bull in Ottawa. October 14, a man is attacked by a pit bull in
Morrisburg. October 15, we announce the plan to introduce legislation to ban
pit bulls. Three days later, a man and a dog were attacked by a pit bull in
Thorold. October 22, a chihuahua was attacked and killed by a pit bull in
Toronto. October 26, this legislation was introduced.
That's two
months of pit bulls in Ontario, and that is just the media reports; it
doesn't include the unreported incidents.
So is it the
case that these dogs are inherently dangerous, and is it the case that these
dogs are a breed apart? The answer to me is in the affirmative. There's been
a lot of talk about the studies that are out there. Let me say right off the
bat that the Canada Safety Council is quite right: We don't have a whole
bunch of forensic studies done on pit bulls in Canada. We certainly have a
whole lot of attacks going on in the province of Ontario and across Canada
when it comes to pit bulls. We know that.
But we do have
some evidence in the United States. There was a US study in 2002 that found
that 48% of serial dog attacks were done by pit bulls; 58% of rampage
attacks by pit bulls; 45% of life-threatening and fatal attacks by pit
bulls. That's a Washington-based research group's serial and rampage dog
attack data, January 2002.
Another study --
now, this one is actually cited often by people who oppose the ban on pit
bulls. It is interesting that they see it as a definitive study. And yet,
what does it find? One third of fatalities caused by dog bites between 1979
and 1998 were caused by pit bulls -- a third of the fatalities. This is a
special report, Breeds of Dogs Involved in Fatal Human Attacks in the United
States Between 1979 and 1998. A number of PhDs and MDs authored it in
September 2000.
There's some
more. There was a study put out by the International Journal of Legal
Medicine in 2002. The authors concluded in the study entitled Forensic
Approach of Fatal Dog Attacks as follows:
"Pit bulls
are responsible for and have the highest percentage of bites in all academic
studies surveyed by a reputable forensic study of fatal dog attacks."
Bringing it back
to Canada:
In Kitchener-Waterloo,
prior to their pit bull ban, there were 18 pit bull incidents per year.
After the ban, there has been about one a year. Since the ban was enacted,
no other breed has filled in the gap in terms of providing dangerous dog
bites, says the city of Kitchener.
City of
Winnipeg: prior to the ban, there were 30 pit bull attacks a year, and 30 to
40 reported serious attacks of all dogs every year. Now, today, over a
decade later, there are zero pit bull attacks in Winnipeg, and in the past
four years, only four to five serious attacks of all dogs. So overall dog
bites dropped and pit bull bites went away. Again, refuting the argument --
and there's a logic to it, but it's not borne out by the evidence -- that if
you ban pit bulls, that doesn't mean you're going to make communities safer.
The experience in Kitchener-Waterloo and in Winnipeg was the exact opposite.
1610
A Toronto Star
op-ed was authored by Howard Gerson and Dr Alan Klag. Dr Klag is a doctor of
veterinary medicine. This was authored not that long ago -- October 14. This
article says as follows: "One study by a California State University
professor showed that pit bulls were far and away a greater danger to the
public than other dogs."
I understand
that the opponents of the pit bull ban -- and they feel very passionately
about it, and emotionally about it. I understand and I have felt that strong
feeling and opposition and emotion on this. These are people who feel
extremely strongly about the subject of banning dog breeds. They often will
seize on a portion of one or another study and try to find an
"Aha!" in it. But at the end of the day, there is a small
percentage of dogs in the province that are pit bulls. This is not the
predominant dog in Ontario. This is also the case in the United States. Yet
they make up a highly disproportionate number of serious dog attacks and
fatalities. So "low number/high attacks" spells
"danger."
So we turned to
other voices, I guess, across the province, to see how they feel about the
pit bull ban, because they are representative of their community, as
municipalities consider pit bull bans in each part of the province. As I
say, we have one in Kitchener-Waterloo. We have a ban in Winnipeg. We have a
ban in Windsor. Bans are being considered in other areas across the
province. Our concern was that we'd have this patchwork pit bull ban: You'd
have a ban in Windsor but no ban in Chatham, so all the pit bulls from
Windsor would get adopted over to Chatham and you'd have this large pit bull
population there. We don't want pit bull havens. If these dogs are
dangerous, if municipality after municipality, if mayor after mayor, if
chief after chief, if expert after expert, if parent after parent, if victim
after victim say that these dogs are inherently dangerous, then surely it is
incumbent upon the province of Ontario not to simply say, "Well, we'll
just let this be a local decision and let this public safety issue be put in
place in some parts of the province but not in others." Surely it's
incumbent upon us to say that we need this public safety measure across the
entire province, and that's what we're here to debate today.
Here are a few
endorsements of the pit bull ban. I have no doubt we'll hear from the other
side too.
A Globe and Mail
editorial, October 18, 2004: "Yes, implementing the ban will be
difficult. Public safety is worth the effort. It's a move long
overdue."
The London Free
Press: The government's "strong stand in announcing legislation to ban
pit bulls in Ontario shows courage and resolve -- and removes the burden
from Ontario's municipalities to deal with a pervasive issue on a piecemeal
basis." That's October 16, 2004.
A columnist in
the Toronto Sun on October 16 said this: "It's taken much too long to
happen, but [the] Attorney General ... is doing the right thing to ban pit
bull dogs throughout Ontario.... So he and his Liberal government should be
congratulated for doing what should have been done years ago."
Toronto Star,
October 16, Jim Coyle: "Whatever the decisive factor or factors, the
days of pit bulls in this province and in this city's streets and
neighbourhoods are numbered. Hallelujah!... Amen. And good riddance."
The Peterborough
Examiner: The "announcement yesterday that legislation banning pit
bulls will be introduced this fall shows that at least one level of
government is serious about protecting the public from vicious dog
attacks."
I've got some
more. Hamilton Spectator, mid-October: "Clearly, it is in the public
interest to eliminate pit bull attacks.... [The] provincial Attorney General
... has rightly approached this issue from the province-wide perspective
with a view to avoiding a patchwork of bans.... Given that pit bull attacks
have continued to occur despite public outrage, it seems the province must
step in to ensure public safety because many pet owners either can't or
won't. The broader public interest is well served by the proposed ban."
Brampton
Guardian: "[W]e fully support" the provincial government's
"pledge to ban pit bulls in the province. This legislation should be
seen as a proactive step to keep Ontario residents, mainly children, safe
from horrifying attacks from dogs that are predisposed to them." That's
the Brampton Guardian, October 17.
It's not just
the editorial writers and opinion makers; it is elected representatives
across the province, from Windsor to Wawa, mayors and councillors whom I've
spoken to, who feel that this measure is necessary province-wide.
Chief Julian
Fantino said that this legislation that we are proposing, introduced by the
government, "makes our playgrounds, sidewalks and neighbourhoods safer.
It is clearly in the best interest of public safety and it will help to
protect our officers, who face these vicious animals when carrying out their
duties." That's Chief Fantino.
We heard from
Chief Fantino. We heard from officers in Toronto, in Kitchener-Waterloo, in
Ottawa and other communities. Again and again, we heard that these dogs pose
an enormous danger to police officers. There was a consensus that one or two
bullets just wasn't going to do it for these dogs. When you hear that, you
think, "What? One or two bullets isn't enough to put these dogs down?
What are these dogs doing walking the streets of Ontario?" Well, other
people agreed.
Mayor David
Miller of Toronto said, "I support the province's swift action. This
problem is not exclusive to any single municipality; it is a province-wide
issue and, therefore, the best solution is a province-wide strategy to keep
Ontarians safe from dangerous dogs."
Mayor Carl Zehr
of Kitchener said, "Since our ban, Kitchener has seen a dramatic
decline in the number of pit bull attacks from 18 to about one per year.
Every Ontarian, in every city across Ontario, deserves the same level of
safety that we have in Kitchener. That's what this legislation would
do."
Chief Vince
Bevan of the Ottawa Police Service said this: "In Ottawa, there have
been 15 incidents involving pit bulls since the beginning of 2003 where
police have had to intervene, and this does not count incidents dealt with
by bylaw enforcement officers." These bylaw enforcement officers just
can't take on these pit bulls. They need multiple bullets to be put down.
"I welcome the government's legislation which, if passed, will provide
us with the additional tools we need to deal with often terrifying
dog-related incidents and to hold owners accountable."
Lastly, from the
first city in Canada to embark on this ban, the city of Winnipeg, which has
had the longest experience -- I think it's 14 years with a ban. Tim Dack,
the chief operating officer of the animal services agency of the city of
Winnipeg, said this -- and I should point out that he actually came to
Toronto and attended at a round table and participated in this. He feels so
strongly about this public safety issue. Here's what Tim Dack said:
"Our experience in Winnipeg has been one of success. We have seen the
number of pit bull incidents decline dramatically since introducing a pit
bull ban 14 years ago. I applaud the government of Ontario for their
decision to ban pit bulls and deal with this urgent public safety
issue."
Last one. I
mentioned Wawa. Rod Morrison, the mayor of Wawa -- there he is; MPP Mike
Brown is applauding -- here's what Rod Morrison had to say: "I commend
the McGuinty government for moving forward quickly on this very important
initiative. Protecting the public from the menace of pit bulls and
toughening up on owners of dangerous dogs that attack is in the best
interest of all people, in every town, city and community across
Ontario." That's Rod Morrison.
Again, I'm not
suggesting for a moment that there is unanimity, but certainly police chiefs
and mayors -- you know what? There is one more I wanted to mention, because
this is important. This is an issue that I want to get into a little bit
more and I will get into a little bit more, but I just want to speak for a
moment to the issue of municipalities and how we're going to implement this,
and so on.
This government
decided that we needed a new deal with cities, that we needed to work with
cities like never before, that the 1867 version of municipalities was not
the 2003-04 version of municipalities. So we struck a new deal with cities.
We said to the city of Toronto, "We understand that the GTA is larger
than any province in the country, next to the rest of Ontario and the
province of Quebec. This is a very large city in one of the most developed
countries in the world. We've got to make sure that this city is given the
respect and powers that it deserves."
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We said to the
Association of Municipalities of Ontario, "If we're going to deal with
issues, if we're going to deal with municipalities, we've got to have an
understanding whereby we, in fact, sit down and work with you."
Here's what the
president of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, Roger Anderson,
said -- Mr Anderson and I have had many, many conversations. I've had a
number of conversations with members of the board of AMO. We've had many
meetings with the officials of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario
because we want to work with them and treat cities as we should because
we're going to have to do this one together.
Here's what
Roger Anderson said: "AMO appreciated an opportunity to advise the
minister on how to implement the province's pit bull ban in a manner that is
practical, effective and affordable for Ontario municipalities, and we know
that the minister will continue to work with us as the legislation
proceeds." Surely, we will. The cities are working with us. The
municipalities are working with us. The councils are working with us. The
officials are working with us. Similarly, we also want to work with the
humane societies, the SPCA, dog trainers and veterinarians. Why? Because we
need to do this together.
Did we hear from
those people? It's interesting: One of the complaints about the government's
action was that we moved too quickly. Let me start by saying that once the
government recognized that this was a serious public safety issue, and once
the government made the decision and was of the belief that these were
inherently dangerous dogs, it was incumbent upon us to act quickly. Did we
hear from people and experts along the way? Of course we did, and I'll speak
to that. That said, rarely do you get people complaining that a government
moves swiftly on a public safety issue. The crisis was very much before the
people of Ontario for many, many years.
Ten years ago, a
young girl in a stroller had her face mauled by a pit bull. She passed out.
They somehow got the pit bull off of her. That young girl was sitting in
that gallery over there with her mom some 10 years later saying, "Thank
goodness this ban's in place so that no other child will have to go through
this again." This has been around, and it just seems to be getting
worse, not better, so we need to act quickly. Once you accept that this is a
serious public safety issue, we'd better act quickly.
That said, it is
before the House. I am recommending to this House that the bill be accepted.
There will be debate; there will, of course, be committee hearings on this;
and this Legislature will decide.
Along the way,
before that happened, here are some of the consultations that I did. I held
a round table -- I think it was in September -- with a number of different
voices -- one of them, the National Companion Animal Coalition. This
membership, the coalition, includes the Canadian Federation of Humane
Societies -- all of them; the Canadian Veterinary Association; Canadian
Kennel Club; Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council; and Agriculture and Agri-Food
Canada. This was a coalition of all of these organizations. We got a really
thoughtful, compelling presentation and submission from the coalition and
certainly heard all of the arguments. We also heard from animal control
officials from the city of Kitchener and Winnipeg at this same round table.
We all sat around the same table, so we got to hear both sides of it. We had
a representative from the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society. There was
someone who is -- I think everyone would agree -- an expert in this: Cathie
Cino, the director of Cat and Jack Canine Safety. She's a dog trainer,
author, and behaviour consultant with aggressive dogs. She talked about her
experience with those dogs. We also heard from the Toronto Police Canine
Unit. They did testify to the extraordinary prey instinct of pit bulls and
what they had to go through to put down these two dogs in late August in
Toronto. We heard from Kitchener-Waterloo police and also from victims. We
heard from a dog trainer who said, "I don't train pit bulls."
"I don't treat pit bulls," say some vets, because they fear for
their own safety.
I met with the
OSPCA, along with Minister Kwinter, in September. We had officials; we had
staff; I was there; Minister Kwinter was there. We had a long talk. We
talked about the implications. We talked about the need for dangerous dog
legislation, not just for pit bulls, but even more broadly, for all
dangerous dogs. I want to make sure that I get to that, too.
Who else did we
hear from? We received quite a thorough submission from the Staffordshire
Bull Terrier Club of Canada; as well, from the Golden Horseshoe American Pit
Bull Terrier Club. I spoke with the president at the time of my
announcement, and my officials have been in discussion with this club's
president. We met with the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to
Animals in the United Kingdom, the British equivalent to the OSPCA -- met
with their chief officer and inspector. We met with the Denver city
solicitor who has carriage of this matter, at least during the fall. We met
with them constantly over the telephone, with officials in Denver, who also
have this ban in place. The state is trying to fight the city ban, and I'll
let that be determined before the courts of that state. We also spoke with
and met with experts, breeders, trainers, animal control officials,
municipal officials and the other humane societies in the city of Toronto,
from Sherbrooke, again from Winnipeg, and we also received a policy
submission from Manitoba veterinarians.
The consultation
got to a point where it was clear to me that the position taken by those
opposed to the ban started and ended with this argument: that breed bans are
wrong; that you should punish the deed, not the breed. So let me speak to
that. I would submit, and I think everyone would agree, that generally
speaking it is true that breed bans are not the way to control dog behaviour.
The question is whether or not there is an exception to that general
principle. When I would put that question again and again to those who
opposed the ban, the various voices on the other side, I again and again
heard, "No, there is no exception." I would ask, "Well, would
you permit wolves to be put on a leash and walked around in public?"
They would say, "No, no, no, we wouldn't do that, because that would be
dangerous." So, the question is just this: Is the pit bull a bull or a
dog? Is the pit bull a pet like every other? Is it in the same league as
other dogs, or is it something that is inherently dangerous and is the
exception to the rule that we don't ban breeds?
Now, to those
who say that banning breeds is a short-term solution, I beg to differ on
this front. Firstly, Winnipeg and Kitchener proved that it is not. It is a
long-term solution to pit bull problems. If you want no more pit bull bites
in a jurisdiction, then you ban the breed. That's what you do. You'll get,
pretty much, no more pit bull bites. The question really becomes whether or
not it's necessary. Is it necessary? Is there another means to protect the
public?
I think we have
to start with that presumption that we don't ban breeds. Well, the answer is
this: The dog seems too powerful and too dangerous to control, to begin
with. One of the complaints, by the way -- one Ontarian e-mailed me and
said, "Don't ask me to put a muzzle on my pit bull. Do you have any
idea what that pit bull will do to me if I try to put a muzzle on him?"
This proves the point. Those who held a rally outside of Queen's Park -- and
I very much respect democratic demonstrations voicing people's opinions and
voicing people's opposition to this, but the owners said, "Please don't
bring your dogs." Well, again, that says it all.
The question is:
Are we going to risk those owners of pit bulls who may not comply with the
muzzle requirement, who may not comply with the leash requirement, who may
not comply with the recommendations of, for example, the SPCA, that it's the
un-neutered and un-spayed pit bulls that are the big problem -- are we going
to risk having these ticking time bombs out there in the province of
Ontario? My argument is: No, the risk is too high. The public safety result
is just too positive. You get less pit bull bites and attacks, and you won't
have the fatalities and tragedies that we see all over Ontario, Canada, the
world, when it comes to pit bull attacks. That will be gone. Then the
question is: Well, are you going to have Rottweilers filling in that gap?
Again, the experience in Winnipeg and Kitchener-Waterloo was no.
Furthermore,
there isn't the same level, certainly amongst the experts that we heard from
at the round table and otherwise, that the prey instinct, the power of the
Rottweiler versus the pit bull -- the evidence that was presented to me, in
any event, was that they are just not the same.
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I grew up with
big dogs -- German shepherds. We had three in our house at one time. They
scared some people, there's no doubt, when they barked and someone showed up
at the door. They were trained. They never attacked. They never hurt anyone.
There are people
who will say to me, "Well, you had German shepherds. Why can't I have a
pit bull?" Firstly, to owners of pit bulls today -- and I think this is
very important -- they need to understand that the ban is not retroactive;
the ban in fact has a grandparenting clause. In other words, those who own
their pit bulls keep their pit bulls. Why? I just think it is humane and
fair that those who bought, bred, imported or otherwise got a dog, assuming
that it was legal, should be able to keep that dog. But -- and there is a
but -- we need to impose restrictions on that dog as it travels around
Ontario: muzzle, leash, spay and neuter the dogs, and municipalities may
have additional requirements for these dogs under the Dog Owners' Liability
Act.
But we went
further because we understood, and heard from people who said this bill
needs to be more than just about pit bulls. So we made changes to the Dog
Owners' Liability Act that dealt with all dangerous dogs, not just pit
bulls. Here are some of the new powers and provisions that are in there.
Firstly, the
SPCA recommended that we've got to deal with this issue of the menacing dog.
We shouldn't have to wait until the dog bites somebody before we put
restrictions on that dog. We have to wait for the dog to bite somebody
before we muzzle and leash that dog or require that. It didn't make any
sense to me. There are some dogs that are just a serious incident waiting to
happen.
Somebody from
Etobicoke e-mailed me saying there was this pit bull that was always jumping
up at the fence whenever her family was in the backyard, almost jumping over
the fence, jumping at their dog and their kid. This is a menacing dog. This
dog was an accident waiting to happen and, sure enough, unfortunately, the
dog finally knocked the fence over one day and charged two children and
another animal. Let's try and prevent that from happening, not just for pit
bulls but for all dogs, by having a provision there that lets us intervene
early, number one.
Number two,
there was the unusual situation where you had some dangerous dogs, in one
case two Doberman pinschers, that had caused a number of serious incidents.
There had been bites, there had been attacks, and the animal control
officers needed to get to those dogs. They needed to get to them and make a
decision as to what to do with them; certainly muzzle, leash and maybe
address other issues with the dogs. They couldn't get to them. Why? They
were in a house. Every time the animal control officers came around, they'd
hurry them into the house. What we heard from the experts is that we need a
power to enter those homes, with a warrant, of course. So you have to go
before a court and establish evidence to get a warrant that will permit you
to enter the house to apprehend the animal. I think this is going to be a
positive step to try and prevent more dangerous dog incidents.
We also
increased the fines and, of course, the fine revenue goes to the
municipalities. We increased the fines to increase the deterrence and give
the powers to the court to deal with the really serious incidents. Now the
fines are the highest in Canada -- $10,000 -- and we included up to six
months' imprisonment as the penalty. Between criminal negligence, a Criminal
Code offence, where incarceration is a possible correction, through to the
Dog Owners' Liability Act, there seemed to be a gap. There seemed to be some
behaviour and some incidents that were so serious that they didn't qualify
under the Criminal Code but they should qualify for serious punishment under
the Dog Owners' Liability Act. So we did that as well.
In this bill, we
also addressed the issue of identification. Again, those who oppose the ban
argue, "Well, you won't be able to identify them." My shortest
response would be to say that they were able to do it in Winnipeg and they
were able to do it in Kitchener-Waterloo.
We used the
Winnipeg definition because it seemed to be the best one. Kitchener-Waterloo
officials indicated to my office, at least on a preliminary basis, that they
were actually interested in adopting the provincial identification
definition instead of their old definition. I'll leave that for them to
decide. If Kitchener-Waterloo wishes to keep the old definition they were
using, they are free to do so. Under this law, we basically permitted those
municipalities that had existing bylaws on this to keep it as it was.
So we identify
by listing a number of breeds and by providing a description -- as best one
can as legislative counsel -- that captures what is a pit bull.
Those who
disagree with the ban will say that there will be identification problems. I
don't doubt there will be some issues on the margins, but, by and large, I
think most people know what a pit bull is. The Toronto Star did a caricature
the other week. They had a pit bull on it. I won't say what was underneath
the caricature, but everyone who saw that picture knew, everyone who read
that caricature knew what that was. That was a pit bull. It didn't say
"pit bull," but you knew when you looked at it that it was a pit
bull. That's what it was. I've said before and I will say again, if it walks
like a pit bull, if it barks and bites like a pit bull, wags its tail like a
pit bull, it's a pit bull. That is going to apply, I'm sure, to the vast
majority of identification cases. That's number one.
Number two,
everybody knows what kind of dog they own. Who doesn't know what kind of dog
they own? If you own a pit bull, you know you own a pit bull. If you know
you don't own a pit bull, then surely will you have the papers to say,
"This isn't a pit bull," it's a whatever, it's something else.
Everybody knows what their dog is. So if they think they've got a pit bull,
then they probably have a pit bull. If they know they have a pit bull, they
definitely have a pit bull. If they have papers saying it's not a pit bull
but an English bull terrier, then they don't have a pit bull.
The argument
opposed on identification has some logic to it, but again, it's just not
borne out in the experience in Winnipeg and Kitchener-Waterloo. If you drill
down, it ends up being one of those arguments used to sort of deal with the
process without dealing with the substance. We are certainly going to talk
about process now, in third reading as well, and no doubt during committee
work. We are here to debate the bill in principle. So I hope we do get to
talk about substance and not just process.
Let's put it
another way: I think that if you asked the people of Winnipeg today,
"Would you undo the pit bull ban? Would you say, `Let's bring pit bulls
back into the city of Winnipeg'"? the answer would be no. This
Legislature is going to decide whether or not Ontario needs a pit bull ban.
If this Legislature so chooses, I doubt that 10 years from now the people of
Ontario are going to suggest that we want to bring back pit bulls into the
province.
I say to those
people who are responsible owners and look after their dogs, whether they be
pit bulls or not, you will, I know, enjoy your dogs. You will, I know, in
many cases, muzzle and leash them. You will, in many cases, have spayed and
neutered them because you are responsible owners. I say to those pet owners
who oppose this ban that I hope you can accept that your pet, whether it be
a pit bull or not, is going to be in a safer community in Ontario once this
pit bull ban comes into effect, because the existing pit bulls will be
subjected to certain restrictions and there will be no future pit bulls.
I think this is
an important public safety issue. I know some people on the other side like
to joke that this isn't an issue that should be addressed by the government.
But I just read through the litany of attacks, bites and serious incidents
involving pit bulls, and I say that if there was an issue where there was a
pesticide or a chemical that was wreaking havoc on a community like pit
bulls have wrought upon Ontario, everybody would say, "We've got to do
something about that pesticide." Interestingly, we find ways through
legislation to define these pesticides, chemicals, narcotics and other
dangerous substances.
1640
The question is,
is this dangerous? I say there is little doubt that in fact the studies, the
statistics, the experience, the voices of Ontario and our own living
experiences and observations demonstrate that this is a serious and
dangerous dog, and I think that compels legislators to act upon it. We may
not all agree on it. I look forward to hearing from the official opposition
on this. I confess I don't know what their position is on this bill, so I'm
going to listen very carefully and closely to see if the official opposition
supports this. I always look forward to hearing from Mr Kormos, the Attorney
General critic and an MPP, I might add, who has had people in his
constituency who have faced pit bull attacks that I mentioned over the last
couple of months.
I look forward
to a debate on this. It is the first of its kind in North America in terms
of the breadth of the ban. But I think we're showing some leadership here. I
think we are going to make Ontario a safer place. I think we are working
with municipalities in such a way that we don't dump the responsibility of
the ban upon them in a way that creates a patchwork across Ontario. I think
-- I hope -- we have our eyes wide open in terms of any possible
improvements to the bill. I certainly always appreciate any suggestions
along those lines. I look forward to the debate, and I really believe, and I
say to all members of this House, that if we pass this bill, we are going to
see a safer Ontario.
I'm sharing my
time with the member from Willowdale, Speaker, so I'll sit down now.
Mr David
Zimmer (Willowdale): We have heard from the Attorney General on the
tremendous public support for this piece of legislation. We've heard about
the tremendous sense of need out there in the community for this
legislation, we've heard about the detailed consultation process that the
attorney's office has gone through in arriving at this legislation, and
we've heard the attorney make the point very eloquently about the
qualitative difference between pit bulls and other breeds of dogs.
I want to speak
to what I will describe as the very reasonableness of this legislation when
you think carefully about it. I speak to the matter as a dog owner myself.
I've had dogs at home since my infancy. I've had dogs right through and
continue to have dogs, all manner of dogs -- large dogs, small dogs, farm
dogs, German shepherds, Labrador retrievers. This is a reasonable piece of
legislation. I say that because we are asking pit bull owners to protect and
save children walking in parks, citizens walking down the street, senior
citizens sitting on the park bench, to protect the public from vicious,
unprovoked, unexpected pit bull attacks by doing the following. And I think
you have to keep this in mind, because if you bear it in mind, I'm sure you
will agree with me about the reasonableness of the legislation. All the
legislation does is say to a pit bull owner the following:
First of all, it
lays out the groundwork. It says, if the legislation is passed, you can't
import pit bulls any more and you can't breed pit bulls any more. The breed
will naturally phase away.
Now, in the
meantime, what are we doing to respect the rights of responsible pit bull
owners, pit bull owners who have their dogs, have a relationship with the
dog, who love the dog? All we're asking the pit bull owner to do is three or
four simple things.
We're asking
that pit bull owner, if you want to keep the pit bull, will you put a muzzle
on it? Is that a big deal? Is that a big expense? The next thing that we're
asking pit bull owners is, if you want to keep your pit bull, will you keep
it on a leash out in public? Is that a big deal? Is that a big expense? And
the third thing we're doing is we're asking pit bull owners, if you want to
keep the pit bull, please have it spayed or neutered." I can tell you
that my office has canvassed veterinarians here, and the average cost of
having a dog spayed or neutered is probably in the order of $150 to $200.
Those three
things that we're saying to existing pit bull owners -- "If you want to
keep your pit bull, keep it on a leash, muzzle it, and will you please get
it spayed" -- are not unreasonable intrusions on a pit bull owner.
They're not unreasonable when you balance, on the other hand, the great harm
that pit bulls are capable of and have done, a harm which can be prevented
by simply investing a few dollars in a muzzle and a leash and $150 or $200
to have your pit bull spayed. Then you can keep the pit bull, and the pit
bull can live out its natural life with you, and the breed will naturally
die out because you can't import it or breed it.
A government has
a responsibility to protect all of its citizens. In the act of protecting
all of its citizens, it has to enter into a decision-making process where it
has to weigh the pros and cons. It has to ask some citizens to do certain
things and ask other citizens to refrain from doing things. But we ask the
citizens to do that because we want something that's best for the greater
good.
When you reflect
honestly and sincerely on the minimum requirements that in fact we're asking
pit bull owners to do, they're not onerous and they're not unreasonable.
They go a long way to protecting people from being viciously attacked by pit
bulls. Hopefully, if they'll do those three or four simple things -- a few
dollars for a leash, a few dollars for a muzzle, $150, $200 to have your dog
spayed -- pit bull owners can enjoy pit bulls, and the citizens of Ontario
can walk the streets without that shudder of fear up their backs as they
enter a park or are on a sidewalk and see a pit bull approaching them.
In all the
circumstances, the legislation is reasonable, it's responsible and it's the
right thing to do.
The
Acting Speaker (Mr Ted Arnott): Questions and comments?
Mr
Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm doing the lead for
the official opposition shortly, but I want to say in response to the
Attorney General and his parliamentary assistant that our party shares the
Attorney General's and the public's desire to stop attacks by dangerous
dogs. Having been a victim of a dog attack myself, I express my sympathy to
all victims of dog attacks.
We have concerns
about how the Attorney General went about developing this bill and the lack
of details on enforcement. It has not been totally thought through, because
there are fundamental questions that the Attorney General cannot answer
which undermine the legitimacy of this bill.
We agree that a
new approach is needed to protect the public from dangerous dogs. But the
fundamental question is, is this bill the right approach? It is our job, as
the opposition party, to make sure the law is clear, effective and credible.
This bill leaves more questions than it answers. We intend to pursue these
questions to see that the law is ultimately solving problems and not
creating them.
I'm very pleased
to hear the minister say today that he has committed to public hearings with
respect to this bill. I think that's what is necessary and that's what is
important whenever you're dealing with law: to make sure that it is
legitimate, that it has the support of the public, and, where there are
other ideas and thoughts out there, that everybody gets a chance to be
heard. I think the Attorney General recognizes this and recognizes that
public hearings are very important.
I have a number
of questions, and I'm looking for answers. I hope the Attorney General can
answer those questions because it's very important to make sure that this
bill is legitimate and credible.
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Mr Peter
Kormos (Niagara Centre): Unfortunately, I won't be able to speak to
this bill with the NDP leadoff this afternoon. I look forward to the
opportunity to do that.
I encourage the
Attorney General to use his influence over his House leader to ensure that
this bill is called again soon so that second reading debate can continue.
My best information at this point is that it is not scheduled for further
second reading debate -- not next week, of course, during constituency week,
but the week after that.
The Attorney
General knows full well -- I have spoken with him about this. I have spoken
with him about what the NDP's position will be about our call for public
hearings. That's number one.
There are,
indeed, questions to be posed. I hear the Attorney General. I listened very
carefully to his comments. I would like to understand why it is that in the
context of the Attorney General's comments, the Ontario Veterinary Medical
Association opposes breed-specific bans. I would like to know why. I would
like an opportunity to ask them as experts why breed-specific bans don't
work.
I would like a
chance to ask the Canada Safety Council, an authority, why they would say
breed bans "should not be used as a quick fix. The solution lies in a
combination of effective animal control measures, reputable breeders,
responsible owners, public education" etc.
I would like to
ask the OSPCA, the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
-- and ensure that other members have a chance to hear from them as well --
why the OSPCA, on September 3, would say, "The Ontario SPCA strongly
believes that any breed-specific ban would not be an effective
solution."
It is imperative
that this not be a knee-jerk and thoroughly and solely emotional response to
what is a very emotional issue, certainly for victims of dog bites and
certainly for dog owners. New Democrats insist that the debate be full and
that the consideration be of the data and evidence before any final
decisions are made.
Mr Tim
Peterson (Mississauga South): It's a pleasure to rise on this
issue. This is a difficult issue for those of us who have grown up with
animals, love animals, have interacted with animals and had our children
interact with animals.
In my youth, I
spent a long time on a farm, and we had a beloved farm dog that was actually
capable of living off the land. Unfortunately, one day that dog was put near
a young child, snapped at the child and severed its tear duct. It broke our
hearts. We had to keep that dog restrained, although we thought it was the
most gentle, tame dog.
I've had other
experiences where I've seen dogs turn without call. The pit bull itself is
probably not the most dangerous dog, except for the phenomenal jaw pressure
it has. Its jaws have one of the highest pressure points of any dog around.
I, who have witnessed many dogs turn and be violent, am concerned not just
about the pit bull but about all dogs.
While I
personally am a dog lover -- I have dogs and I raised my children with dogs
-- the overwhelming evidence from all places is that this dog is a very
dangerous dog. One child attacked, one person killed, are too many for a
breed of dogs.
So it's with
some regret and some hesitation that I support this, but this is excellent,
safe legislation. This is what a government is empowered to do: to protect
ourselves. It's wonderful to be able to stand and rise and support Mr Bryant
and this legislation.
Mr Jerry
J. Ouellette (Oshawa): I very much appreciate the opportunity to
speak today. First of all, let me point out, would I own a pit bull? Wou |